The Son of Thunder

David Hill (29 Dec 2003) "The Son of Thunder"

"I am the Resurrection and the Life. He that believes and me and dies, yet shall live. And he that believes in me and lives, shall never die..."

Several years ago now, I sent in a post on the Son of Thunder, but unfortunately I forgot to save the draft, and it is no longer in the archieves. I had been contemplating retyping it. So, I figured that this must be the leading of the Spirit, so here it is.

I stumbled on to this theory when I realized that man's first six thousand years would be divided up into three groups of 2000 yrs each, and that this symbolized the Trinity. And, in the first 2000 God the Father was typified by Enoch who did not die and thus lived forever like The Ancient of Days Himself. It was easy, therefore, to make the connection of the second set to God the Son who was represented by Elijah who was also taken up to heaven without dying and thus represents Y'shua who also is God. Thus, in theory, there should be a third individual that represents the third set of 2000 years which itself typifies the Holy Spirit.

The only conclusion would be John who, it is possible, might not have died, but, like the Holy Spirit that has "gone out into all the earth" John has been walking the earth for all these years.

When you look at the Scriptures and Church History, it provides circumstantial evidence that, though it does not prove the theory, it certainly does not disprove
it either.

His name, "John Zebedee" would mean, literally, "A Gift from the Eternal Giver that Endures" and exactly what gift could The Eternal One give someone that would last forever? Obviuosly it would be Eternal Life. Thus it is that John mentions Eternal Life more than all the other writers of the New Testament combined. John was extremely interested in this Gift.

Now, place yourself at his side when Y'shua raised Lazarus with the words at the top of this post. He that believes on me and lives shall never die. Those words were probably still ringing in John's ears a couple of weeks later when he is standing inside the empty tomb and he then says of himself that he believed, speaking, of course, by the Holy Spirit. John didn't just believe that Y'shua was alive, he believed that Y'shua was the resurrection and the life, and in doing so, possibly became the fulfillment of that very truth.

Thus, after the resurrection, while on the shores of the sea of Galilee, Y'shua tells Peter to follow Him, and not to worry about John for if it were His Will, than John would tarry until He returns. Thus, the rumor went out throughout all the Spirit filled Church, that John would never die. John himself, does not deny this possibility, only qualifies it, as his Lord did, with "If it were His will" then he will tarry until the return (which, by the way, technically would be refering to the end of the trib, and thus John may have a ministry to Israel during the trib).

Because of this 'rumor' John also ended up earning another name by the early church and it is "That Certain One" as Paul calls him in one of his epistles.

He is the Certain One who will never die. Thus it is that Justin Martyr tells of his own conversion at the side of a lake by "A Certain Old Man" who introduced him to the Lord, while he was "searching for a lost memeber of his household."

The teaching of the early church tells us that John, though in his older years (80's possibly) saw a backslidden young believer one day, who, when he saw John, took off running in the other direction in his quilt, and John took off after him and caught him, and led him back into the fold. This shows us what kind of physical condition that John was in, much like Moses (and Caleb) who maintained their natural strength.

The oldest tradition we have concerning the death of the Beloved Disciple is from the Greek Orthodox Church (they, if anyone, would know since he was last seen in Asia Minor - see quote below) which states that John told his disciples to bury him alive, which they did (probably in a tomb). Then, they went back for him later but he was gone.

"Attributing the Elder's death to the Apostle would explain why the latter is the only Apostle for whom no relics have been preserved. In the Greek Orthodox Church tradition, the Apostle, near death, asked that a grave be dug for him in the form of the cross. He was laid in the grave, covered to the neck and a cloth was placed over his face. Later, friends found no body. This legend is recorded in the "Daily Lives of the Saints and the Calendar of Feasts," by Tom Mitrakos of the Orthodox Calendar Co., 3131 Scenic Ct., Allison Park, Pa. 15101.

The legend is also recorded in a book on "John, Whom Jesus Loved," by Dr. J. Culross (a book so old it has no date of publication by Morgan and Scott of London). He wrote that the belief continued through the Middle Ages. John's remains were sought, but never found. The belief became almost an article of popular faith. The English sect of Seekers, under Oliver Cromwell, expected John to reappear as the forerunner of Christ's glorious coming (P.240). While only a legend, it shows there is no conclusive evidence that John ever died.

Domitian banished Christians from Rome before he died in 96 AD. John was among them. Under Trajan, from 98 to 117, it was a capital offence to be a Christian. Ignatius, another pupil of the Apostle John, was a martyr during this time. In the first list of martyrs, John the Apostle is not mentioned! (Encyclopedia of Early Christianity, P.742).

In a book on "The Twelve" by the great Greek and Semitic scholar, published by John Winston Co., Phila., 1957, P.19, Edgar J. Goodspeed, author of over fifty books, says: "There is no record of John's martyrdom." Without such evidence, the Scriptures should be considered. We know of three important passages.

The most convincing Scripture is that of the two voices telling John in unison: "You must prophesy again before many people and nations and tongues and kings." Rev.10:11. This was after heaven's voice told John to "seal the little scroll" out of which seven thunders spoke. It was after he ate the scroll...sweet to the taste and bitter to the stomach. Otherwise it seems like an uncalled-for ritual without purpose. Nothing John wrote after that required him to "prophesy before many people and nations and tongues and kings" Rev.10:11.

http://www.lastday.net/lastday/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=65"

Thus, there is no Scriptural evidence that John ever died.

He was commissioned by our Lord to go to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" which is refering to the lost tribes, and thus John would have been "ordaining elders" in and amoung these people unawares for all this time. Also, assuredly John would have been involved in any major Translation of the Word, like Erasmus, who knew many different languages and completed a translation of the Word at the expense of rejecting two very lucritive positions in the Catholic Church and in another organization (by the way he used the Received Text which aught to tell you something).  Interstingly enough, the individual that convinced King James that they needed a new translation was a guy named John, unfortunately, I don't remember his last name.

In the winter of 86/87 while at Bible College in Arizona, I was walking home from the restaurant that I worked at, and up ahead of me I see this "Certain Old Man" standing on the sidewalk, and I get the impression from the Spirit that I should witness to this individual. So, when I neared him I asked him if I could ask him a question. He said yes, and so I asked him, "If you were to die tonight, would you go to heaven?"

Immeadiatly he responded, "Heaven, what do you know about Heaven? Where is Heaven?" This particular response caught me off guard, so I sheepishly replied, "Ah, Heaven is where God dwells." To which he said something to the effect that "that's a pretty pat answer" or something like that, but what surprised (and awed) me next was that he began quoting about four or five verses (all of which I recognized) showing me exactly where Heaven is as if he had personally been there (somewhere in "The North"), which John had been to, when he received the Revelation.

After this, he barraged me with questions about the Bible, all of which I successfully answered, and this caused him to calm down and he said, "well, I quess you do know alittle bit about the Bible, huh" to which I aswered "yeah, a little bit" and then we had an interesting conversation that lasted for about ten minutes or so, during which he told me I was from the tribe of Ephraim, to which I responded "how can you tell" and to which he replied "Oh, I can tell by your eyes and the color of your hair" which, really, should be impossible (if true) for the physical identity of the tribes have been lost for 2000 years, yet he claimed to be able to id the tribes by their physical characteristics.

By the way I have a 'condition' when I shave where by, the hairs of my beard are so corse, that when they are cut with a razor, they immeadiately curl up under the skin, so that, when they start regrowing, they pierce the skin, and it becomes discomforting, to say the least. That is one of the reasons that I don't shave any more. This condition is well known amoung black people and in fact, in the military the blacks are the only ones who can get shaving wavers for this very reason. Now, the reason that I say this is because Ephraim and Manasseh were sired by Joseph and an Egyptian Princess, and thus, their descendants might also manifest this particular skin condition. Something to think about.

So, after this little discussion, he then told me something that I couldn't believe at the time, and so I thought he was either lying to me or crazy, so I broke of the conversation, and that is that he had the entire Bible memorized in like forty differenct languages, or something like that. However, if this were John, who had wandered the entire world, for all these years, and learned the languages of different peoples and translated the Word, hundreds of times, then he could have memorized the Word as he said.

Years later, after I had come to the conclusion that he may be alive, I went back out to Arizona to try and find him, without any luck (forgot to check Messianic Congregations). When I described this individual to one Pastor who had been in the area for about ten years (I toned down the description to only ten languages), this pastor said, "well, if that's true, then he would have the Apostle Paul beat." "Yeah, he would" I replied, and then hung up.

Now, though I don't know if I should or not, but since I have not heard from this individual again, I assume that he has "moved on" so I will add this to the story. Right after I originally posted this material on the Doves, I got a letter from Rosh Kodesh, and he quoted one of the Psalms that I mentioned in that post that John would have seen "many sore troubles". He was responding to my statement that one night at the Power Company I used to work at, when I had arrived at the conclusion that John was still alive, I opened my Bible to turn to the Revelation at the end of the Bible, and the Scriptures instead actually opened up directly to Psalm 71 and I looked down and read, "now Lord, when I am old and gray don't forsake me until I have shown the generation that is to come your wonderful salvation" and I knew that John was alive and this Psalm was referring specifically to him. So, Rosh Kodesh was emphasisinng to me the struggles that John would have went through in this fallen world system over the course of the last 2,000, as if he was remembering them himsef.

I didn't think much about it for a couple of months but then I got to thinking what if John was alive and ministering to people on the net, wouldn't he, eventually, find his way to the Doves who are watching for the return of the Lord more than any other group of Christians I know? Then I remembered this letter from Rosh. I believe, for other reasons that I am not including here that occured in our letters, that Rosh Kodesh was this "Certain Old Man" that I had met in Arizona, and I believe that he is John.

It was right after I met this individual that I got the impression that I was susposed to head back to my home in New England (see post The Road to Zion).

This repost is not as detailed as the original, but I guess you get the picture.

And by the way, in Ps 71, the individual is "revived" three times. For John, this would have occured the first time after his minstry was ended in Asia Minor at his 'burial' and the second time around 1000ad for the Lord "visits man every morning" or every thousand years, and He would have visited the beloved disciple then, and finally, the third time John will have his youth restored would be at the Rapture. So, I am quite sure I will be seeing John again during the trib in Israel. But I may not recognize him then in his 'new' body. For aught we know, he is one of The Four Carpenters that I mentioned in my recent post.

Oh, and one more thing to John, in case he reads this: Y'shua didn't say no, he said, not yet...

Editor's Note : December 21, 2009 :

It may interest the reader to know that, now that I have converted to Catholicism and am in the process of converting to Orthodoxy that I have realized that, in fact, John assuredly became immortal via the Real Presense in the Eucharist which is known as Theosis.  The Catholics do not believe that this is possible in this life but the Orthodox do.

Kinda like they know something that no one else does, huh...